Friday, 10 September 2010

THE THIN EDGE OF THE WEDGE?

Hello again folks! When John Elson showed me this leaflet the other day; I thought on how this COULD be the precursor to the dreaded MoB ... trialled out initially as an option but maybe to be compulsory down the road. You should therefore not be surprised [if you really knew me that is!] that I am now quoting these inspired words from the Book of Revelation; chapter13:

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." [KJV; verses #16 thru' #18]

Real Bereans [Acts 17:11] are truly needed; watchmen must warn; evangelists must compel; DO NOT BE DECEIVED and watch that periphery!

God bless you and God bless Israel ... KJS ... 10-Sep-2010

15 comments:

John Chingford said...

I found this on the http://www.noidnosale.com/ link within www.citizencard.com

"Friday, September 10, 2010

The No ID, No Sale! Campaign is operated by CitizenCard but promotes accecptance by retailers of all PASS Accredited (Government approved) Proof of Age / ID schemes. The campaign is active in more than 100,000 retailers nationwide and is aimed at creating a culture in which young people expect to be asked to prove their age, and in which retailers accept only the correct forms of ID.

This website is intended to offer advice and support for anyone with an interest in under-age sales. You can also download or order No ID, No Sale! materials."

It is to prevent underage buying of certain products. It doesn't mean that they cannot buy anything. It is just simply an ID card to prove their age.

It doesn't seem to be a precursor for MoB. I still believe that MoB can only work if an ID chip is implanted on the body.

However, maybe it is another hidden way of getting everybody's ID onto a database which could then lead to other things.

Keith J Sinclair said...

John ... check out my UKIP blog?

God bless,

Keith

John Chingford said...

Does that blog have any reference to this item or you just want me to look at that blog in general? I had a quick look but did not notice anything referring to this article.

Keith J Sinclair said...

It was general sort of thing. Sorry for the confusion. KJS

Andy said...

I think speculation about this sort of thing is pointless. The previous government was going to bring in identity cards and the antichrist-watchers went into overdrive. Then we had an election and the idea got dropped. How much time did some Christians waste worrying about it? Far too much in my view.

There are a number of proof-of-age schemes designed to prevent sales of alcohol, tobacco, etc to underage people, of which this is one. Big deal.

Keith, could I respectfully suggest that perhaps you are being a bit immature by linking this to prophecies in Revelation. Did you take the trouble to first check it out like John did?

Keith J Sinclair said...

Andy, thank you for commenting. I did check it out. A very godly man bought this to me for review. I used the words COULD and precursor in my blog. I am also aware of all the previous scurrying about by certain folk when these kinds of stories et al break out. I am suggesting that this may be a type of what may be coming. It may well be initially 'optional' in the first 36 months of trib and then compulsory after the AC rises. I am not stating that it will be like but that it could. I agree that this is the latest of many such schemes a la VeriChip; Digital Angel; the national ID scheme and other unpublicized schemes. Most of all I appreciate you taking the time to comment. God bless ... KJS

Andy said...

Keith, I'm not sure you did check it out, because if you look at www.citizencard.com/about.php , you'll see that it was launched in 1999. It predates the previous government's ID cards proposal. So it's hardly the "latest scheme"...

Let me ask you a question - how has blogging about this helped you grow as a christian or spread the gospel of Jesus?

Keith J Sinclair said...

Granted I shouldn't have used the word 'latest' ... this scheme was out on consultation in '98 ... should've known better.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andy

Thanks for your acknowledgement.

Thankyou also for the php link to citizen cards. Yes it does say launched 1999. However, it seems that maybe now, they are into overdrive on their advertising campaign and therefore maybe just maybe there is a greater emphasis NOW on what was started in 1999.

If you go to the following links you will see that they are VERY recent ads:
http://www.noidnosale.com/
www.citizencard.com

The first one has todays date and the second one shows examples of the Citizen card which must be a current card ie 2010 if you look at DoB on the cards, comparing it with the persons age written on it.

The technology is now available for 666 etc it is just a question of WHEN it will be used. We should use this as a reason to speed up on reaching a lost world before it is too late and a tool for showing them the time is at hand.

Andy said...

John, I just looked at www.noidnosale.com, and, yes, it shows today's date. However, I'm a day later than you, so what's happening? Nothing more sinister than a webpage that tells you the current date! In fact, if you look at some of the other stuff on the web it doesn't suggest anything particularly recent - the latest newsletter is dated Winter 08/09 and so is almost two years old!

The www.citizencard.com site does appear to have been more recently updated, but what's the big deal with that? They're basically a commercial enterprise and have to maintain interest.

I couldn't help notice that you used the word "maybe" three times at the start of your comment. With respect, you're just speculating. Is there any real evidence that they are "into overdrive on their advertising campaign"? As far as I can tell, all that's happened is a friend of Keith's has picked up a leaflet in his corner shop! I think my local convenience store has had something similar on display for years.

What amazes me is the degree of mis-informed paranoia that seems to be present amongst supposedly mature christians.

Technology is not the issue - it has been available for years - for example I remember the film "Thief in the Night" where people received a tattoo-like mark. This was made in 1972!!

Here's another thought - if the mark of the beast happens in the manner commonly understood, by definition it has to be worldwide. So somehow I don't think that a UK proof-of-age scheme will have anything to do with it. And what about in the two-thirds world, where government and technology is nothing like as advanced in the west. How would it be implemented in rural Africa or India, for example? People who can't read or write are hardly going to be filling in application forms to get an identity card!

You finished with the words "...a tool for showing them [the lost world] the time is at hand". So let me ask you a closing question - are there any places in the Bible where people are enouraged to believe in Jesus in order to escape a forthcoming tribulation? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of a single example. I'd suggest that this is not a method of evangelism that is found in the Bible. As the Bible is our guide to faith, I'm not sure that we should be doing anything that it doesn't support.

Andy said...

John, I just looked at www.noidnosale.com, and, yes, it shows today's date. However, I'm a day later than you, so what's happening? Nothing more sinister than a webpage that tells you the current date! In fact, if you look at some of the other stuff on the web it doesn't suggest anything particularly recent - the latest newsletter is dated Winter 08/09 and so is almost two years old!

The www.citizencard.com site does appear to have been more recently updated, but what's the big deal with that? They're basically a commercial enterprise and have to maintain interest.

I couldn't help notice that you used the word "maybe" three times at the start of your comment. With respect, you're just speculating. Is there any real evidence that they are "into overdrive on their advertising campaign"? As far as I can tell, all that's happened is a friend of Keith's has picked up a leaflet in his corner shop! I think my local convenience store has had something similar on display for years.

What amazes me is the degree of mis-informed paranoia that seems to be present amongst supposedly mature christians.

Technology is not the issue - it has been available for years - for example I remember the film "Thief in the Night" where people received a tattoo-like mark. This was made in 1972!!

Here's another thought - if the mark of the beast happens in the manner commonly understood, by definition it has to be worldwide. So somehow I don't think that a UK proof-of-age scheme will have anything to do with it. And what about in the two-thirds world, where government and technology is nothing like as advanced in the west. How would it be implemented in rural Africa or India, for example? People who can't read or write are hardly going to be filling in application forms to get an identity card!

You finished with the words "...a tool for showing them [the lost world] the time is at hand". So let me ask you a closing question - are there any places in the Bible where people are enouraged to believe in Jesus in order to escape a forthcoming tribulation? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of a single example. I'd suggest that this is not a method of evangelism that is found in the Bible. As the Bible is our guide to faith, I'm not sure that we should be doing anything that it doesn't support.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andy
I will answer your last comment with the last question first and then the others afterwards.

1) Acts 17:30-31 is an example:
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Paul was warning them about a time of judgement. John Baptist said "flee from the wrath to come". If these are not enough, let me know and I will find others.

Peter (as part of his Pentecost message) quoted fulfilled prophecy to convince the hearers. Paul said "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some". Jesus taught the apostles the whole councel of God so that they could preach the WHOLE gospel which includes the consequences if men do not repent and receive Him.

The Holy Spirit convicts of righteousness, sin and JUDGEMENT. Surely if we speak under the anointing of the Holy Spirit we also will warn people of the consequences. We should surely use everything at our disposal to preach the gospel. Peter and Paul did!

Paul to the men of Athens spoke in terms they could understand using their philosophy. Why shouldn't we use what we can incs fulfilled prophecy.

Then there is Ezekiel 33:3-9
Although this is OT it is still a principle an example as part of our message

2) I used "maybe" because I am not pushing the argument nor saying I believe it to be true, just making point that there could be 2 sides to the argument, ie both of you could be correct.

I was just asking the question if they were moving forward at a greater pace now? I don't actually know. However, I do know that the authorities as/when they get the opportunity ARE gradually enforcing bio ID cards or passports (microchipped)on everyone, including thumbprints etc which are stored on a database.

The question Keith is asking (and I can understand why) is whether the younger generation are the next group being targeted.

3) Regarding 2rd 3rd world countries. If everyone is enforced to take a computerised chip (or whatever it may be) on their bodies (hand, forehead) so that they can buy or sell, it wouldn't require any application forms, writing or ID cards, because the lazer (or whatever) mark would be the person's ID.

4) When I say we have the technology, I mean it. If Obama can have the power to close down the internet when it suits him, then a global World leader could enforce everyone to take the computerised mark to control how people behave economically, socially etc. We are in days when IT IS possible.

5) Now, I agree it is wrong to get caught up in speculating exactly how it will happen. My point is that if the technology is with us, it could happen at any time soon. So we need to be more urgent than we are in reaching the World with the gospel, before it is too late.

Expected Imminently said...

Do ya reckon my bus pass is for targeting the elderly?

I jest, however there is a modicum of ‘control’ in all these schemes, even ‘loyalty’ cards are used to gain information on population habits.

Could be all these things are ‘dry runs’ in anticipation for the mob… not that that concerns me personally of course. ;)

Sue

Andy said...

John,

Acts 17:30-31 speaks of Jesus judging the world, not of a forthcoming tribulation.

On the subject of the two-thirds world, you ignore the fact that the billions living there will have to be given the mark. So, in your (rather far-fetched) example, there will have to be a means by which they are all implanted with microchips, which will take huge resources. Secondly, in order to check that people have this mark, there will need to be some sort of scanner - effectively an electronic gadget that will read the microchip. Vets have devices like this to read chips in pets. Again, these scanners will have to be distributed in huge quantities throughout the world. Everyone who engages in trade will need one. And they will need to be powered by electricity, which doesn't exist in many countries outside of the cities. Finally, of course, there will need to be some system of enforcement. Who is going to prevent farmers in some remote village doing trade by barter with people who haven't the mark? Look at countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan - in some places the national government has no control over what happens at a local level.

Any country has always maintained control over communications. Governments have always been able to shut down the post or the telephones. So why the big deal about Obama and the internet? And I doubt that he could shut down the internet worldwide - the whole idea of the internet is that it is robust. So if he did pull the plug on the USA, whilst it might disrupt the rest of the world somewhat, eventually it would recover.

So there are really huge problems with the sort of things you suggest, and I don't think you've really thought them through at all.

Your whole approach seems to be one of paranoid speculation that fails to consider history and the global perspective. It seems a pointless exercise.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andy

Can I ask that you PLEASE be respectful in your comments. You were actually quite rude to Keith and now rude to me. I am happy to have a "nice" edifying conversation with you, but if it is disrespectful it will not be glorifying to the Lord to continue.

Remember it is written "let your speech be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everybody"

However, on this occasion I will reply.

You are right that it is talking about the judgement not the tribulation. The point I was making is that if Paul preached using the judgement in his message to warn people, why can we not use the Tribulation to warn people to repent?

In reply to the rest of what you wrote.

We are moving into times when the global leaders are looking for one global leader. We already have an EU president. The next obvious step is a global president. If Obama can stop the internet in USA, a global leader could do it worldwide.

I take your point regarding electricity, but there is such a thing as solar energy which may take greater force in the future (who knows?) or some other energy may be discovered. Whatever!

Anyway, it is clear that bartering or separatists WILL happen during the Tribulation, anyway. How else would some of those who did not take the mark survive 3.5 years without food or drink? There must be some people taking care of them.

From the Bible, it seems that the greatest 666 activity will happen in the revived Roman Empire (EU) anyway.

Regarding how fast things can be set up. It was only about 15 years ago that the internet took over. Look how far it has spread in just 15 years and how quickly it has developed. Probably everyone in the world has now got access to it and much of our time and what we do now depends upon it.

The Bible talks about the miraculous power of the ac. When a people are determined enough to move quickly in a united purpose it can be extremely swift, in the days we are living in.

It is NOT paranoia the reason behind this conversation. In Jesus we need not be afraid. Jesus said "fear not I have overcome the World". The reason behind this article, is to encourage (not scare) but ENCOURAGE believers that the return of Jesus is close at hand! Therefore we should be about the work of the kingdom before it is too late.